‘Just because the waters are uncharted doesn’t mean you don’t try them’: Ambassador Bob Rae on Canada’s Stand Against the Taliban
In a groundbreaking move, Canada, alongside the Netherlands, Australia, and Germany, has initiated legal action against the Taliban regime at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) for their gender-based human rights violations.
More to Her Story sits down with Ambassador Bob Rae, Canada’s Permanent Representative to the United Nations and President of the UN Economic and Social Council, to discuss the significance of this move and the international community’s role in holding the Taliban accountable.
Sarah Little: This is a groundbreaking move by Canada and the first time a country has taken another country to the ICJ over gender-based human rights violations.
Ambassador Rae: It’s been a long time in preparation. Canada has been looking for ways to go beyond the traditional political approaches, trying to figure out where we can provide assistance without assisting the Taliban regime. Increasingly, we’ve had a lot of discussions with civil society representatives and lawyers. So, this has been a long time in development. It reflects the personal determination of Foreign Minister Joly and the discussions we’ve been having here in New York and in The Hague with member states about what more we can do.
Sarah Little: What was the impetus at this moment?
Ambassador Rae: I think it’s the frustration with the latest [Taliban] legislation. Those who argue in favor of engaging with them, thinking they’ll eventually change, are underestimating the extent to which the conservative forces within the Taliban are not about to change. They are not responding to pressures, whether from within the Muslim community or elsewhere. So, we’re opening another angle. The Taliban has to understand they are part of a series of treaties and arrangements, which is what being part of the UN is all about. They’ve ratified various conventions, so they’re bound by them. You can’t just run away from them. So, we’re seeing what we can do. Just because the waters are uncharted doesn’t mean you don’t try them.
Sarah Little: Are you surprised that other countries haven’t yet followed?
Ambassador Rae: No, I think there are competing views among nation-states about whether this is the right course of action. But we believe very strongly that it is, and frankly, there aren’t a lot of other options available. This is not something we take lightly—we take it very seriously.
Sarah Little: Canada hasn’t used the term “gender apartheid” explicitly. Why?
Ambassador Rae: You have to use the conventions that exist, and you have to use the language that exists to pursue a legal case like this. There are other places where everybody is talking about “apartheid” and the forced separation of women, and I have no problem using the term. [In this case], you end up getting into a legal argument about whether it applies or doesn’t apply, so we didn’t want to do that.
Sarah Little: This move obviously sends a strong message to the international community. What do you hope happens next?
Ambassador Rae: I hope people start using the laws and conventions that are supposed to apply and take full advantage of them. We pass all of these conventions and treaties, ratify them, but we don’t see them as legal instruments that need to be used. So, I think it’s time that we did.
Sarah Little: Canada and the other three member states have given the Taliban six months to respond to the allegations. What is the process?
Ambassador Rae: The process is part of the rules of the International Court of Justice, which is the body responsible for applying this convention and other conventions. This includes a period of discussion and negotiations.
Sarah Little: How do you think the Taliban will respond?
Ambassador Rae: I don’t know. There’s no point in pretending we know the answer, but I think we have to move the debate beyond the idea that this is just an internal issue to understanding that these are basic requirements of international law. They’re basic requirements of what it means to sign an agreement and uphold it. We are going to keep pushing on this.
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